Sara Améstegui Deik & Eschatological Imagination

Eschatology refers to the area of theological reflection that makes meaning of "the last things;" it often conjures up notions of apocalypticism, heaven, judgment, or even the book of Revelation. On this episode of 20 Minute Takes, Nikki Toyama-Szeto talks with Sara Améstegui Deik about how eschatologies help to form our broader theological imaginations. Sara is a scholar based in Bolivia, and her expertise is in Christian Zionism—an ideology that has had an outsized influence on Christian thinking and Christian ethics, particularly among Evangelicals in the West. What possibilities exist beyond this, in theologizing the future, and living justly in the present? Listen in.

You can follow Sara on Instagram.

20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action
Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto 
Produced by David de Leon
Editing and Mixing by Wiloza Media
Music by Andre Henry

Transcript

20MT (SE08) - Sara Améstegui Deik

[Nikki]

Hello, my name is Niki Toyamasito, and I'm the Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and your host for today's episode of 20-Minute Takes. Today I talk with Sarah Deke Amestigi. She is a researcher at Aberdeen University but based in Bolivia.

She talks to us about the different ways that dispensationalist has formed a Christian imagination and how it is that we can look towards Christian ethics for different ways to navigate all the violence and what is going on in the Middle East. Join us for today's episode of 20-Minute Takes. 

[Nikki]

Sarah, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of 20-Minute Takes.

[Speaker 1]

No, pleasure to be here. 

[Nikki]

Now, Sarah, you're a researcher at Aberdeen University, which is in Scotland, but you're based in Bolivia and your research area is particularly on Christian Zionism. Can you tell us a little bit about how did this come to be?

[Sara]

Well, actually, if you were brought up in an evangelical home around the 80s and 90s, I think the idea of the rapture and the end times was pretty prevalent. And there were some books and some films about it. The Left Behind series.

[Nikki]

The Left Behind series. I read those.

[Sara]

So even though I grew up in Latin America, because I grew up in an evangelical home, all these themes were part of me. And I remember when I was 10, the 9-11 happened. And, you know, the talk about the end times came really, really strong around that time.

So it's always been an interest of mine, eschatology. But when I was a kid, it was more about a fear of mine. You know, I was afraid of the end times.

I was afraid of the rapture. I remember I had a very strong fear that all my family will be, you know, raptured and I would be left behind. Like that was kind of a fear I had.

But obviously, God has worked through my heart and also just reading the Bible as a theologian or as a theology student really helped me. And to realize that dispensationalism, this idea of, you know, the seven dispensations and that Christ is going to come, but he's going to rapture the church. It's one way of reading Revelation, and it doesn't necessarily need to be the only way.

So I think that helped me kind of heal some of my fears. I don't think God intended us to fear his second coming or he intended the church to just wait for him to come and everything to burn, you know, this idea of the kingdom of God being for the next dispensation. So all we have to do is save souls and that's it.

I think with Mision Integral, with the work of other theologians like René Padilla, Samuel Escobar, I learned that, you know, when Jesus came, he started the kingdom, you know, and the work of the kingdom is now as well as later on. So it gave me a more active role as a Christian, more than a fear that, you know, I just need to make sure everyone's safe because, you know, if they are left behind, it's going to be an awful situation for them. So I think I've moved from a fear-based Christianity to one that is open to work for the kingdom.

So that's why I've been always interested in the end times. But I also happen to marry a Palestinian Christian. So I moved to Bethlehem when I was 26 and I used to teach in a Bible school in Bethlehem and my students had a lot of questions about the end times.

Which makes sense because so much of the narrative is place-based there. Exactly. And I realized that for us, maybe for you in America or for me in Latin America, we hear about Armageddon and the wars and the nuclear wars and we're like, okay, it will happen back there.

You know, it's kind of removed from us. And then suddenly being in the Middle East and teaching in Palestine, in Bethlehem, my students were fearful for their homeland, for what was happening to them, to their family. So it just became so much more real and so much more urgent to study this subject and to also understand that the good message of the gospel is for everyone, you know, everyone in Latin America and in the Middle East.

And if we want to share, it needs to be good news for everyone.

[Nikki]

That's fascinating. I don't think I ever understood Mision Integral, which some people also know as like a holistic gospel. I don't think I realized that connection with sort of this responsive response to dispensationalism.

[Sara]

I mean, René Padilla worked in the 1780s, Samuel Escobar's time. And if you think about dispensationalism, that's where it was at its peak in Latin America. So we had a lot of missionaries with good heart that they thought, you know, we're living the end times, we need to go and share the gospel with everyone.

So there's huge mission agencies that came to Latin America around that time. So that's what René Padilla was listening to. He was being confronted with dispensationalism and this idea that we just need to save souls and with the Catholic liberation theology.

So his response was, OK, I want to be more biblical centered as opposed to maybe liberation theology. But at the same time, I don't believe that the role of the church is just to sit and wait for Jesus to come because a war will finish everything.

[Nikki]

I see.

[Sara]

Yeah. A lot of his work on the kingdom ethics came from that thinking.

[Nikki]

And can you describe some of the characteristics that got renewed for this new vision for this season, instead of this idea of like, let's just grab as many people as we can and try to save them, get them across that, invite Jesus into your heartline?

[Sara]

Yes. And I think this vision helped me a lot to teach my students in Bethlehem. René Padilla was big on understanding that when Jesus came, He inaugurated a new season in the church, something majestic, something wonderful happened, the inauguration of the kingdom of God, you know, for God's will to be here on earth as it is in heaven.

And he understood, even before some other theologians, if you read his writings, that that inauguration was not complete. It had begun, but it will be consummated when the second coming of Christ. So if you think about the kingdom ethics as something that started, then the role of the church is much more than just thinking about saving souls.

It means trying as best as we can to live Jesus's ethics. So what's central then is Jesus's teachings, for example, in the Sermon of the Mount or the Nazarene Manifesto, you know, like bringing healing to the poor, making the captive free, blessed are the peacemakers. So our point as a church is to try to live that kingdom here and now instead of in a dispensational model, it's more Jesus is going to come soon.

We need to rescue as many people as we can. And there's this dichotomy, right, between the church and the society. So it's almost like, oh, we let go of society.

We let go of social action. You know, Jesus is just going to come and save his church, his remnant. And then his ethics kind of lose sight.

So for example, with wars in the Middle East, I don't know where that theology fits, you know, thou shall not kill or blessed are the peacemakers, because in that kind of theology, you're actually looking forward for wars in the Middle East, because it means Jesus is coming soon. So you're actively working towards, for example, we heard a lot of people say, oh, there will never be peace in the Middle East. That's just never going to happen.

So, you know, sorry, there will be wars and famine and all kinds of tragic events, and then Jesus is going to come. So that comes from that dispensationalist framework. That is a logical conclusion. I kind of feel a little apathetic of the fact that there will be violence.

There's a fatalism to that. It just that's the way it will be. But if you'd step out of that theological framework, then it asks these questions about do we kill?

What do peacemakers do? I think a lot of Christians are going through a bit of a moral crisis because they've been told we must support Israel. But at the same time, they're seeing the devastation in Gaza.

They're seeing the killing of innocent children and there's a moral pain in them. Yeah. And I think it's time to say dispensationalism and Christian Zionism is a way to look at the end times theology, but it's not the only way.

And there are other ways that help us live the here and now with ethics, you know, that helps us integrate our theology with our political motivations.

[Nikki]

Yeah, no, that's really helpful. Can you say a bit more about how you understand Christian Zionism? Because there's a lot of different phrases that are getting tossed around, particularly in our North American context.

And can you tell us a bit of the ways that we can begin to navigate in these times outside of that framework? Because I think for a lot of folks, it's the only articulated theology that we have to understand what's happening in the Middle East.

[Sara]

Yes. One, Munter Isaac always says, how about we start looking at the Middle East outside the framework of dispensationalism, you know, taking out the glasses of end times. And when we do that, we humanize them.

You know, they're no more end time actors that, you know, you need to place it in here and here so that the war comes. And I think that's really helpful for Palestinians and also for Israelis, for Jews, for Muslims, when we humanize them, when we understand they are our siblings, they are human beings, just as we are, that they have dreams and aspirations. They want to grow old and have families.

And I think that's the first key thing that let's start to look at the Middle East as we look at ourselves, you know, as human beings trying to live on this planet Earth. So what Christian Zionism does, it places Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Muslims into an end times scenario, right? Zionism is a political movement that wants to reestablish Israel, the political entity that is Israel.

And Christian Zionism says that's actually God's will, you know, this reestablishment or this establishment of the modern state of Israel is God's will and we must help. And a lot of, especially within Pentecostal circles, it's about also gaining blessings. So they take Genesis 12, 3, God talking to Abraham saying, whoever blesses you, I will bless and whoever curses you, I will curse.

So they take this promise God made to Abraham and they somehow put it towards the whole modern state of Israel. So as Christians, we are supposed to bless Israel and bless the establishment of Israel in 1948 as a way to gain God's blessing, not only individual blessing, but also nationwide. In Africa, for example, Christian Zionism is big on prosperity gospel.

In Latin America, you also see some declarations of presidents who are also Christian Zionists who are saying, well, you know, we want the embassy to move to Jerusalem because our nation needs God's blessing. So it's almost like a political ideology that has a Christian backing, you know.

[Nikki]

Well, how is it that you think that the American church got so formed by this particular stream of theology and what is the alternative?

[Sara]

There's so many books about it that I can like quote that try to explain this. There's a new book that came out last year, The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism by David Hamill, I think is his name. But he tries to explain that there's a pop dispensationalism.

So it's the kind of dispensationalism that attracts a lot of audiences because it has the illusion of certainty, you know. Yeah, because there are books that tell you, you know, Jesus is going to come in this time or there's this is the framework. And I can tell you who's going to fight with who, you know, the Chinese military and the Russians.

And so it got a lot of traction because when there's uncertainty, people want to have certainty. They want to know what's going to happen. So pop dispensationalism became very, very popular in the 90s and it kind of like stuck in the religious imagination.

And I think a problem that we had is that as theologians, there was no alternative. There wasn't something more popular based, something that people can relate to, something that people can understand. So I think pop dispensationalism kind of stood the way and it became just very popular.

And I think the products like the Schofield Bible that was accessible for people, the Schofield Bible basically is a dispensational Bible. And it was super popular back in the day. And it's wherever there were American missions that got also exported.

So it was accessible. It was something that brings comfort to people to know what's happening next. And I call it imagined certainty.

But I think if you really look into the Bible and you read Jesus's words, and even, you know, Revelation, there's ambiguity. You know, I think it's on purpose that the Bible is ambiguous about the end time, because I think we're called to, I wish I had all the answers, but we are called to trust, to have faith in Christ. I think that's the biblical message.

And I think that's where we need to lean on. Trust that God is in control. Trust that His plans are good and their plans to give us a future.

And if it's ambiguous in the Bible, it means we need to trust more in God. And I think there's a bigger peace in our hearts when we think that way.

[Nikki]

Yeah. So can you say more about what are some of the tensions or the ambiguities that you press yourself to stay in?

[Sara]

Well, first of all, it's that verse in Matthew 24, where no one knows. No one knows and that's okay. But then Jesus says, be prepared.

So I'm going to live in that here and not yet. The kingdom of God has started, and I don't know when it's going to finish. You know, I don't know when this world as we know it will pass and there will be a new Jerusalem.

I think it's harder to live in that ambiguity or in that mystery. But I think that's why we worship a God that we don't understand fully. Right.

And I think that's Paul's words when he says, we see dimly, but when he comes, we will know. We will know perfectly.

[Nikki]

I appreciate that. I think it is hard to stay in some of the ambiguity. I think in the American context, people get very nervous about criticizing Christian Zionism because I think people are feeling very, they don't want to be anti-Semitic.

Sure. And I think there is a lingering repentance from not having actually been responsive during World War II and the extermination of Jewish folks through the concentration camps. Do you have any thoughts or reflection of how to live in that tension, in that space?

[Sara]

Nikki, I'm so glad you asked that. I think it's so important to get our facts right and get our hearts in the right place. I think something that I love about Palestinian Christians is that they know for sure they follow the ethics of Christ.

So they're non-violent. They don't want to hate. They want to love their enemy.

And I think that's where we need to, as a church, to be prophetic is to say those words, right? That we are against violence. We are against hating people.

And I think a tool that is used whenever there's conflict is to generalize, right? And to make binaries. These are the good people and these are the bad people when actually this whole conflict is so much more complicated.

I think a prophetic voice during the war in Gaza was Jews that are against the genocide, against what the modern day state of Israel is doing. I don't know if you come across Jewish voice for peace, but they're amazing. They understand that the welfare of Jews around the world comes with the welfare of Palestinians around the world.

They understand that we need to differentiate between Judaism and Zionism. Zionism is a political ideology and not all Jews are in favor of Zionism. Since the inception of Zionism as a political ideology, there were a descendant voice, a critical voice from the Jewish side.

So first, I think it's important for us to divide Zionism, the political ideology, and Judaism. There's a lot of Jews that read the Torah and they are against what the modern state of Israel is doing. So I think that's also important.

It's also important to say not all Palestinians agree with Hamas. So the way that Hamas is looking for liberation was with violent resistance. Not all Palestinians believe that.

Not all Palestinians that are Muslims and not all Palestinians that are Christians. Also, it's important to say that not all Palestinians are Muslims, right? There's a big thriving Christian community in Palestine.

An ancient Christian community. And they have always been anti-war, anti-violence resistant. They think peace is the way forward.

They believe in peaceful resistance. So I think what helps everyone is to realize that this false dichotomy that is placed in the media for political reasons is not right. There are so many good books from Jewish authors about what's happening.

There's one that's called Being Jew After Gaza. It's a very, very prophetic book. So I think what helped me is to realize I'm against a political ideology, which is Zionism, that is not good for Palestinians or Israelis, not good for Jews or Christians or Muslims.

So I'm against that ideology, but I would never say I'm against Jews or I'm against people from the Middle East, Semitic people as a whole. I also think it's important for us to realize that the biggest victims of racism in Europe were the Jews. Of course, they are seen as victims, but in this conflict, they are the ones who hold the power.

So we need to be more nuanced in understanding what's happening in the Middle East. In the Middle East, there was no Holocaust. There was no persecution.

So if you look back at Jews living in Palestine before 1948, they were a good community. There were a community of people living there. Palestine had Jews, had Muslims, and had Christians, and they all lived together.

So I think understanding these historical differences, understanding ideology, political ideology outside of religion helps a lot.

[Nikki]

Yes. As we are trying to navigate these times, and as you have done this deep dive in understanding both Christian Zionism and how it's forming the church and people, and also you're encouraging, I appreciate the encouragement to also reflect on Christian ethics and not just this picture of an end times to inform how we respond today. What's one exhortation that you have for Christians in America in this moment?

[Sara]

I'm actually, I've been proven wrong in the sense that I just thought, man, Christians in America, they just don't like the Middle East. They just hate the Middle East. I had that as a confession.

I just thought simplistically that way. But what happened in the last two years completely changed my mind because I feel that when Christians in America started hearing the other side, when Christians in America started seeing what Zionism was doing to Palestinians, their worldview started cracking. And suddenly you hear a lot of advocates for Palestinian rights from coming from America.

So I think a problem was that Christians in America were just receiving one side of the story, one that was very curated, one that had a lot of theology nuggets, you know, just to like support Israel, Israelis are the people of God. And if you only hear that, then of course you're just going to have that worldview or that perspective. But I think when this whole issue was opened up, hearts were opened up.

And I feel just if you're doubting certain things about your eschatological views, trust God in that, you know, hold God's hand and see if, you know, be open to being wrong, to, you know, maybe accept that you were wrong, that this wasn't actually the right thing. But that doesn't mean that all your Christianity is wrong or, you know, everything that you've been taught is wrong. But like, it does feel, it is scary to recognize or to think that, man, that teaching was wrong.

But I think in that journey, your faith in God will be illuminated and it will be bigger and more expansive and, you know, the world will become a safer place. So I think, I don't know if it's an exhortation, but almost like, wow, when Americans were opened to the whole truth, there were all the reactions coming from the church and we all welcomed that. I think we were all relieved that that was the case.

Yeah.

[Nikki]

Well, Sarah, thank you so much for being part of our global family and having this conversation with me and with our community here in North America. We're so grateful for the deep work you do and for taking the time to talk with us here on 20-Minute Takes.

[Sara]

Oh, it's amazing. Thank you, Nikki, and thank you for, yeah, just the invitation. I know it's a topic people shy away from, so I'm glad that you guys, Christians for Social Action, are willing to, you know, take the risk and talk about it.

There's nothing wrong with it. We're not antisemitic. We are people that love God and love the ethics of Jesus.

[Nikki]

20-Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action. Our music was created by Andre Henry, and this episode was mixed and engineered by Willosa Media. If you like this episode, spread the word by subscribing, reviewing, or sharing.

I'm your host, Nikki Toyamasito. If you want to find out more about our work, visit the website at christiansforsocialaction.org.