Eddie Kaufholz and Storytelling for Activists

This week on 20 Minute Takes, Nikki Toyama-Szeto talks with Eddie Kaufholz about storytelling in community, advice for gatekeepers of stories, and how stories fuel the Christian imagination for a just future. Eddie leads the communications and marketing team at Bread for the World and previously worked for International Justice Mission.

You can find Eddie at:
https://eddiekaufholz.com
Instagram: @edwardoreddie
Twitter: @edwardoreddie 

20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action
Host and Producer: Nikki Toyama-Szeto 
Edited by: Wiloza Media
Music: Andre Henry

Transcript

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Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hello, my name is Nikki Toyama-Szeto, and I'm the Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and your host for today's episode of 20 Minute Takes. Today we talk to Eddie Kaufholz. He's the Director of Strategic Communication at Bread for the World, and we talk about storytelling and the importance of community when listening

and holding vulnerable people's stories, and also what it means to stir the Christian imagination. Join us for this episode of 20 Minute Takes.

Eddie Kaufholz, thank you so much for joining us today on this episode of 20 Minute Takes. 

Eddie Kaufholz: Nikki, it's like going home again with my old friend. We're podcasting again. Yeah, sorry. You're, you're introing and doing your thing. It's so nice to be here. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I have really appreciated the way that you talk about story.

And we've brought you on because I think it is particularly helpful for activists to think about story. You've been a storyteller and leading communications at various justice- based organizations. Can you tell us a little bit about how you think about like, what is a good story? 

Eddie Kaufholz: You know, it's interesting because even the getting the brand of storyteller, I almost pushed back on that for myself. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Really? 

Eddie Kaufholz: I feel like I, I feel like it's a sneaky way for me to be a story receiver because I think it's just like there's a lot of stuff I have not understood. Like if you listen back to our podcast that we did together, The New Activists...

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: The New Activists, old days, old days

Eddie Kaufholz: Old days. But like, That show, our friend Richard said, "You know, that show is really about you learning in front of everybody." And I was like, ah. And he's totally right. Right? So, so for me, it's come, it's always come from that place. So my background is actually in counseling and in counseling, you reveal and give nothing of yourself except for very pointed moments where it's very necessary.

But generally it's, "Tell me more," you know? You're finding patterns. And I found that when I was a counselor and when I was seeing clients, that receiving of their story actually was more formative for me than certainly my process of story gathering and telling was for them. And I think that's just been kind of the process and now it's just cloaked in like "You do interviews" or "You do comms or creative," but it's always just the gathering and the pulling because I don't understand something.

And so I'm going to try to create a safe space. And see if I can just gather something from you. And then that's really helpful for me and maybe for other people. So that was kind of a answer, not the really the answer answer, but that's how I actually have seen that kind of progression in my life... where that started. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So it's kind of, you're more of a story collector and you happen to share out some of your collection, but it sounds like your kind of journey through the world is actually as a curious collector of interesting stories. So I think one of the things that has been really interesting to me is that you have been somebody who has communicated the stories of some pretty vulnerable people whether it's working through IJM or do you work with Bread for the World or just in some of your other places, how is it that you think about holding other people's stories? And I know there's a lot of talk right now too, about having people tell their own stories. But in reality, folks are sometimes not in the places where they can tell their stories. Do you have any thoughts about like either guidelines that you have for people who are story collectors like you, or people who want to be advocates, but they're also kind of a little bit entrusted with this trust of a story that may not be fully their own?

Eddie Kaufholz: Yeah, I think that is a generous interpretation to think that I alone have some sort of pathway to this because in reality the thing that I would say to anyone who is trying to be a storyteller, story gatherer, telling sensitive stories is "Never ever ever do it alone." Never. 

I think that in no way can storytelling be a solo effort. I know at the end of the day, it's one person on a mic, but you and I are on a mic. We've got someone else listening to us right now. We'll have two other people editing us. You'll have a final listen. It's all filtered and it needs to be, I think, because of the extremely sensitive and difficult nature of someone sharing their story, which is now just a buzzword for some of the things that are at the core of their vulnerability.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yeah. 

Eddie Kaufholz: Whatever that is. Like, if you're asking someone to share their story, you're not just telling, asking them to share jokes or, you know, their shopping list. You're asking them to get inside something that maybe they've processed, maybe they're comfortable with, but it's vulnerable. I think we at least owe it to them if we're going to broadcast that vulnerability to put it through layers.

And I would say the other thing. But I feel like very passionate about like, we should not be solo creators. 

The second one though is just unconditional empathy. I have interviewed people that I deeply disagree with. And I want to go in and I want to wink at my agenda... but I'm like, "That's not what this is."

This isn't that kind of conversation. This is supposed to be a trusted space for real people to have real conversations about things that matter. And so you can't get on a microphone, you can't start writing, you can't start whatever, you can't start broadcasting until there is at least a part of you that can empathize.

And if you can't, just don't talk to them. Just don't do it. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yeah, that's so true. 

Eddie Kaufholz: There's other interviews to have, but like, I've gotta be able to pull just a little bit of "I could see how you would feel that way about that." And then we can have a conversation, then it becomes safe.

And safety I think is really important; like you and I have safety right now. We trust each other. If one of us falls off the ledge, we're going to catch the other one. This is a safe environment. If it wasn't, This, this turns wonky quick. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: No, no. I think that's really true.

I think I appreciate what you're saying about that entering in with some empathy or with some curiosity — there's a reason this person who may come to absolute opposite or repulsive conclusions has come to those conclusions. And I think that's actually such a great thing to model because I sort of feel like that's what a lot of people are longing for; it's not the yelling talking points but I think some something of this seeking for some sort of understanding not agreement but maybe a little bit of an understanding from someone's point.

Eddie Kaufholz: And also knowing for myself; even with all of that I'm still a white, cisgender, middle upper class, male, Christian— I know all of my, my lanes, right?

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yeah. 

Eddie Kaufholz: There are some conversations that are like, "This isn't mine; I shouldn't do this. Or, I should ask some real permission; is this okay to do? And there were just some things I never touched because it was like, "I need to lay aside; me as Eddie —and just go like me as an entity in this world... this isn't a conversation I should get to have. Someone else can record that week or someone else can do a better job with the conversation. But I think there comes a little bit of just ego with that. This isn't about me getting this moment; this is about them telling their story and sometimes just my presence makes that not a safe place for them, even if they like me as a person; this isn't right for them or for what they're about to talk about. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I appreciate the self awareness. Okay. I've got a question that might come a little bit out of a baseball field where we haven't identified yet. You operate on a couple of different levels and I wonder if you might have some insights on this.

I have a couple of friends mostly like people of color who are either authors or speakers, they're people that kind of on this content producing side and they have run into gatekeepers —like producers, executive producers, editors who are from a totally separate social location, usually from the white community, who are sort of entrusted with this powerful thing of editing or gatekeeping or releasing this artistic creative project into the world.

And they sort of just don't get it. Do you have any advice for folks who do have some of those gatekeeping roles: how they should think about stories that are really different from their own? So it might be a pastor letting someone bring a testimony into their church, but in my head, I'm also thinking of editors at these Christian publishing houses that just don't understand or get the dynamic or these other kinds of content creative gatekeepers; any thoughts about either how you've engaged with that or or how you would think about that? 

Eddie Kaufholz: That is such a deeply important question —it sounds like I'm prefacing in order to find an answer and I I'm not; everybody externally will say that there's no gatekeeper, right?

These publishers and content creators will say there's not, but then you know that there are walls being hit. And so to answer your question, the advice for the gatekeeper is, one: I would ask them to be brave and direct in their feedback. I think sometimes quoting Brene Brown, "Clarity is kindness."

I think there's part of it that's like, if you're a gatekeeper, first of all, that's your job. You're paid to be a gatekeeper. You're paid to say yes or no. So I'm a gatekeeper of Bread for the World content. It's an easy gate to keep, to be honest, because bread's so positive and everything's so great. But you gotta say no to some stuff, and sometimes it's hard.

So I think the first is to be crystal clear; "I am rejecting your manuscript for these reasons," and don't be afraid. I think there is this opposite kind of fear that if I receive a manuscript, and I want to publish it because it is by a thoughtfully diverse author, but I just don't think it's good or I just don't think it's right, right?

Like there is that possibility where then you kind of shirk the responsibility of saying, "You have asked me to be a gatekeeper. Here is my feedback." And really clear feedback; everybody knows the game that we're playing. The problem is when you're afraid to give that feedback, then you have broken the game.

And now there is no clarity. There was just this nebulous rejection and then you don't know what to place that rejection on. Whereas sometimes the rejection is like, something should be rejected, right? It's not ready yet. Or this isn't our organization's voice, or this isn't what we do.

 It's okay to reject something if you were clear, the real problem comes when there's not that clarity. And then the real, real problem comes from a macro level from that kind of gatekeeper when they aren't realizing their position in all of this and recognizing the places that that position can damage other people purely by their presence and power over the situation, which is why I would for me, the ultimate hope is that I don't work ever in isolation. I have a team where we discuss stuff and they have called me on many things, like good, bad stuff you're not seeing, stuff you're letting through that you shouldn't be just because you like the person, right?

We're not working in isolation. I think that it is either ego or even if it's more sinister , it's something darker, right? Like, like something that would be categorized by one of the big "isms," right? Like it's one of those things, but either way, the fact that they are able to just sit in this place alone, unchecked is super dangerous. And I would say "Allow yourself to be very transparent and checked." So those are the gatekeeper thoughts. Is that even close to what you were thinking? 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Totally. I think that's really I think it's really helpful because there is that a little bit of this awareness of power that you bring and sometimes that power, like, you know your audience, you know your organization and so be clear... but I appreciate that also kind of this theme of communication and community.

It's sort of recognizing which I think is really different than kind of this Christian celebrity— the promotion of an individual ; I really appreciate kind of the health and the robustness, but also sort of the check and transformation that can happen when some of this communication story collecting happens in a community. I think that's super cool. You know, one of the things that Christians for Social Action is trying to do is stir the Christian imagination, helping folks bust out of like, "Oh, being a faithful Christian only looks like this," to "Oh, when we read the Bible, are there new ways that some of this looks lived out, especially in the area of justice?"

And I think of imagination and storytelling very close. And then I also think of the gospels. When I was growing up, it was called "the greatest story ever told," right? You know, so like the Bible is, and Christianity is a storytelling faith, right? It's a faith of an arc of a great story.

Do you have any thoughts about the role of this Christian imagination? I feel like the kind of stories you tell sort of help fuel my Christian imagination. "Oh, I didn't realize churches could be that in that place. Oh, I didn't realize that's what Jesus is doing in that part of the world I've never heard of." You know, some of those sort of things. 

Eddie Kaufholz: Yeah. It's hard because who I really want to answer this question is you, but I understand the dynamic that we have. You ask a question and I answer it. So I will answer it, but I would love for you, if you are okay with answering your own question, I'm more curious how you would answer it and I will not be as verbose on this answer. But, I don't know. Here is what I have experienced: every person who I've ever interviewed, ever, has in some way alluded to the fact that that you're not going to grow unless you're in some way exposed to someone else who is not exactly like you.

I mean, over and over again, it was travel, travel. " When did you realize you were an activist? When was the first time you realized something wasn't right with the world?" And it was for better or worse —it was the mission trip. Yes. When Healing Hurts, I understand; but it was that exposure and it's over and over again.

What's the advice that you'd give? And over and over, it was , "Yes. Do anything. Yes. Go anywhere that's not the place you're at."

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yes. 

Eddie Kaufholz: Or walk to a place that you'd normally drive to. Do anything to physically put yourself in a different place; so there is something about the physicality of just experiencing something else and it's not "other" because the trick is there is no "other" it is only us, but we can feel separated. So part of it was just like moving into that space even if it's not super defined. Like I know there may be problems with us; like you get lost in the philosophy of like "Oh, should there be a soup kitchen?

Does that actually help? Doesn't it?" Who cares? Tonight I'm going to meet a person, and we're going to sit, and we're going to eat soup together. And I realize it doesn't solve everything, but there is something in that that you can't define that I think for me. So that's the first thing.

And I do think that the, the second piece to that is just to try a little bit not to be afraid. Like, it's, it's okay. I remember one of the best sermons I've ever heard. This was like early 2000s this was pre- Supreme Court ruling on same sex marriage. This was like, especially in Christian circles, the, this was like on fire.

And this guy got up into the pulpit and gave, of a 30 minute sermon, he gave a 28 minute treatise on how the Bible explicitly prohibits and God explicitly prohibits homosexuality. And I mean I'm sitting in this church dying in my seat going like, "This is uncomfortable." And in the last two minutes —it was a big swing he took —in the last two minutes he said, "And I believe all of that is true... but then I met my friend." And then he talked about a person, one of his close friends who came out to him. And all of a sudden, you realize, he's like, "I would have been afraid for so long. But then you realize, like, there is a human behind the theory." And he's like, , "...and that blew apart all of my theory."

And I realize this is kind of an antiquated example when we look at it now, but at the time, it was like, "Oh, wow." ...trying not to be so afraid to step out of that little world that I'm in. That's the best I can do. And then I guess getting other people to tell me how they do it and then just mooching off of them.

Speaking of which, how would you answer your own question? 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Okay. I did not expect that. Question to ricochet back to me. 

Eddie Kaufholz: Hard ricochet. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yeah.

Eddie Kaufholz: It's like a racquetball against the wall It's coming at your face. Here we go. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Like yeah, it's in those hurt when they hit, you know" 

Eddie Kaufholz: Big welts if you don't want to answer. If you don't want to answer I'm sorry...

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: It was really helpful for me to hear your answer because there is something about that when you get out of your own rut, when you do something a little different, that's when you notice all the things that you didn't realize are a part of your own. You know? And I think there's something in that that does feed imagination.

I initially would have said there's something to me that's super exciting about reading something in the Bible like a story of a community and then releasing what the flannel board Sunday school Christianity told you that looks like lived out—the ways that I kind of have been taught, "Oh, that, that means this," and then going and finding a community that at its heart is doing that thing.

But it's in a way that's so, so, so surprising. That's what I think of in terms of feeding like Christian imaginations. I was at a food pantry and I love reading community boards where they say, " Free ride, free stereo," you know, all that kind of stuff. And one of the things that this food pantry that they were providing is for people who didn't have homes, they were offering a professional photographer to take a picture, a portrait and a hairdresser who would do hair and makeup so that folks could have a picture of themselves. So for folks who are coming to a food pantry who are housing vulnerable. There were these folks who are sort of saying, "This is my gift that I have. I'm a photographer." And then this other person says "I'm a hairstylist." You know, "Would you like a photo of yourself to share with your family or just to have that?"

That to me, stirs my Christian imagination. Like, Oh, how many things I hear about. You know, Christian teachers, you know, doing this, but it's like, Oh, how beautiful is that? That a Christian photographer and a Christian beautician... and how a imago dei affirming such a simple act is. 

Eddie Kaufholz: Dignity. Just, I think, affirming the dignity of people and especially in a way that it's not necessarily practically helpful. Like, that picture isn't going to, like, do much outside of just affirm dignity. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yes, yes. 

Eddie Kaufholz: And, like, give them a gift they can give or just look at themselves and smile and be happy... that is really; that is a good one; that is beautiful.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So, Christian imagination. Yeah. Thanks for the hard throwback. 

Eddie Kaufholz: No. Thank you for the answer. That stirred my imagination. 

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Well, Eddie, thank you so much for joining us on this episode. It's always a great joy to hang out and spend some time with you, but I have loved hearing you unpack some of how you think about storytelling and community.

Eddie Kaufholz: You're one of my favorite people and podcast host and neighbors. Just right down the road. Probably almost see each other. Thank you. It was a privilege to be here. I love this podcast.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto: 20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action. Our music was created by Andre Henry. And this episode was mixed and engineered by Wiloza Media. If you liked this episode, spread the word by subscribing, reviewing, or sharing. I'm your host, Nikki Toyama-Szeto. If you want to find out more about our work, visit the website at ChristiansForSocialAction.org.